FreeSVG community discussion forum

Place to discuss various topics regarding public domain svg, community.

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#1 2020-01-06 15:31:41

rob_s
Moderator
Registered: 2019-10-04
Posts: 182

[IDEA] attract more contributors

Think it would be a good idea to brainstorm strategies to attract and engage new users / contributors as those that came to the site from OCAL, may eventually choose to return to OCAL once it's resurrected.

If there are any users out there with a large or small social media presence / who operate their own blog / or operate a webcast you can show your appreciation by helping spread the word. By doing so you will attracting new users that can donate fresh content and bring on board new contributors that can assist with the tagging process of the old "public domain" images retrieved from OCAL.

Any further idea's are always welcome and appreciated!...

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#2 2020-01-07 11:43:09

liftarn
Member
Registered: 2019-10-09
Posts: 79

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

I'm pretty much ignored on social media so I can't help much there. Also I'm a bit reluctant to endorse either OCAL or FreeSVG. OCAL dropped the ball, but now it actually looks like it may be be do a comeback. FreeSVG have done a great job in resurrecting the old clip art from OCAL, but it feel like a ghost town so it don't encourage participation. Right now I don't trust either site so I'll just sit and wait and hope time will tell.

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#3 2020-01-07 14:06:15

rob_s
Moderator
Registered: 2019-10-04
Posts: 182

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

I am with you on this and understand where you are coming from, your one of the earliest contributors that joined us and appreciate you sticking around, and your continued efforts. Although it may seem like a ghost town as there are not that many contributors there are many visitors so your work does get exposure, it's just unfortunate these visitors go unnoticed, but this is in part due to the site ethos and design, to allow anyone without restriction unhampered access to images.

Although I do not have permission to disclose site stats, I have seen for myself visitor numbers and can confirm there is a large number of visitors for a site still in early development, so I requested monthly visitor stats be published, hopefully this can be approved, the problem is it can then become a competition with other sites following suite, and one more thing for other sites to brag about.

From what I am lead to believe irrespective of OCAL returning FreeSVG will still be around as a source of user contributed public domain images, They are allegedly in it for the long haul, so it's fine to have reservations, they understand trust is earned and this will happen over time. The true litmus test will come when  OCAL fully returns, until then it appears to be business as usual.

Also if there are any specific concerns on your mind that only the developers can answer, then they are around, I just pickup on the majority of forum posts to lighten the load.

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#4 2020-01-09 07:47:13

vedran
Moderator
Registered: 2019-09-21
Posts: 76

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

liftarn wrote:

I'm pretty much ignored on social media so I can't help much there. Also I'm a bit reluctant to endorse either OCAL or FreeSVG. OCAL dropped the ball, but now it actually looks like it may be be do a comeback. FreeSVG have done a great job in resurrecting the old clip art from OCAL, but it feel like a ghost town so it don't encourage participation. Right now I don't trust either site so I'll just sit and wait and hope time will tell.

Hi liftarn,
we took little break during holidays but I assure you that we are fully committed and improving site constantly

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#5 2020-01-09 13:39:45

liftarn
Member
Registered: 2019-10-09
Posts: 79

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

rob_s wrote:

FreeSVG will still be around as a source of user contributed public domain images, They are allegedly in it for the long haul, so it's fine to have reservations, they understand trust is earned and this will happen over time.

It's one thing to be a collection of the old OCAL cliparts, it's another thing to build a new community. When you create something and give it away for free you want to get some kind of feedback to know that you make a difference.

Another reason I don't want to commit is the rather heavy handed censorship. Now I'm not talking about where to draw the line for what is NSFW (even if I feel that classic art and things like the Voyager plaque should be OK), but about political, cultural and religious censorship. For instance we have images flagged as NSFW because racists may be offended. And it's not just for the images. I have noticed that things I've written in the forum have been edited. Someone put words into my mouth. That I found a bit of a violation.

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#6 2020-01-09 14:27:48

rob_s
Moderator
Registered: 2019-10-04
Posts: 182

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

I admittantly editted one line in one of your posts in the past, because it was anti establishment and may have caused offense to educators who use the site. It was either that or deletion of the entire comment as this is a responsibility I have been entrusted with and share with the devs. The only other time I have edited a posts is to add a comment, instead of adding a new message so it does not get overlooked, but this is no longer done, as you objected to this.

The censorship of images tags / descriptions is another matter, there have been images which you have added in the past, where the description was automatically censored as the word Nazi appeared in the block list being used, there is a lot to be said for and against the use of blocklist, but my opinion is, if it's not going to work properly "as words that are blocked are still searchable, and it doesn't work for descriptions" then it might as well be removed. The site currently uses a generic blocklist, which we were hoping to modify (add/remove words) over time, which can be done introduced much quicker than creating a list from scratch.

I think the problem is, people expect the site to function precisely like OCAL but this is not possible, they have 15+ years head start and many code contributions and librarians to help out with moderation and censrship over the years, but even with this, their site still had problems, which may explain why search results were restricted to 33 pages.

This site serves as a replacement but admittantly lacks some of the features and number of contributors at present, features are slowing being added but in order for the site to attract contributors, it has to appeal to people coming from all walks of life, so cannot be seen to allign its views with any group, so therefore some censorship is needed.

Unfortunately it's a double edged sword, the developers spend a lot of time tagging old images from the OCAL collection, and as a result don't have much time at their disposal to focus on developing, plus they have other responsibility like creating artwork themselves that they donate here and on public domain vectors, plus tending to their other sites, more users to help with tagging and self moderation so that automated blocklist are not needed would free them up to focus on development challenges.

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#7 2020-01-12 22:12:27

liftarn
Member
Registered: 2019-10-09
Posts: 79

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

rob_s wrote:

I admittantly editted one line in one of your posts in the past, because it was anti establishment and may have caused offense to educators who use the site.

OK, perhaps it should be noted somewhere that you are not allowed to write anything that may upset religious extremists.

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#8 2020-01-13 00:02:22

rob_s
Moderator
Registered: 2019-10-04
Posts: 182

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

I think the phrase used was religious biggots, and there wasn't anything demonstrated by that user at the time that indicated either to be true, so a judgement call was taken to censor your post, albeit moderately. Either way, I feel the message or point you were attempting to convey was still achieved.

The point I am trying to make is if you upset somebody through general discourse then thats fair game, but I don't think anyone needs to resort to name calling just because someone's belief's or value's don't allign with our own, from the interaction I have had with you, I think you are better than that.

Whilst I have your attn do you have any ideas on how the site could show appreciation to contributors like yourself or give you more exposure or feedback on your donated time / images / efforts, If so please post as a new feature request in the usual manor.

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#9 2020-01-13 09:26:11

liftarn
Member
Registered: 2019-10-09
Posts: 79

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

rob_s wrote:

I think the phrase used was religious bigots, and there wasn't anything demonstrated by that user at the time that indicated either to be true, so a judgement call was taken to censor your post, albeit moderately.

That is interesting since it wasn't directed at any user at all. It was about a specific organisation that is a fundamentalist religious organisation that promotes creationism, racism and religious bigotry.

Last edited by liftarn (2020-01-13 15:18:18)

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#10 2020-01-13 11:32:57

rob_s
Moderator
Registered: 2019-10-04
Posts: 182

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

Well thats just semantics, as the board didn't write it, a person did. And just because they object to a smiley raising it's middle finger and an image promoting dogging doesn't mean they are out to convert you or to change your views, but it does mean the site has to set the bar proportionality.

I am not sure if you have noticed but OCAL are also marking images as NSFW could it be they too are planning on introducing censorship. So in that respect we wil be equal. If your problem is with the moderation in the forum, then may I suggest a users excerise restraint or a greater degree of self moderation is undertaken, so as not to offend others or promote their own ideology, if this is too much to ask then we reserve the right to moderate posts or remove them completely depending on the severity.

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#11 2020-01-13 15:26:01

liftarn
Member
Registered: 2019-10-09
Posts: 79

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

rob_s wrote:

I am not sure if you have noticed but OCAL are also marking images as NSFW could it be they too are planning on introducing censorship. So in that respect we wil be equal.

OCAL have had NSFW flagging for ages, but they never used it to suppress political or religious views (as far as I know).

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#12 2020-01-13 16:31:31

rob_s
Moderator
Registered: 2019-10-04
Posts: 182

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

Well I certainly can't comment on OCAL censorship tactics as I was never a registered user, the only thing I noticed was that 33 page limit, and what I am definitely aware of when tagging is, some of these images I don't ever recall seeing before, especially provocative ones.

As for the forum, well they never had one, and I doubt you would ever see one there. The intention of this forum was first and foremost to offer guidance / assistance / to keep people informed / to gather feedback, but it seems to have attracted other nefarious uses, which sometimes extends to people inciting discontent or reciting anti establishment rhetoric.

It seems instead of just accepting some minor censorship is needed some feel compelled to fight it, without considering 97% of the visitors to the site don't appear to have an issue with the moderation as if they did, we would be seeing much stronger opposition to it via the forum, so we have to assume the approach the site is adopting is the correct one for the majority.

All I can say is If OCAL is such a unrestricted utopia and your on the fence now because your are seeing they are making some progress to return, then there isn't anything we can do or say to change your mind.

Although we are disappointed to see some contributors leave us, we anticipated it may happen if OCAL ever returned.

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#13 2020-01-22 14:55:57

j4p4n
Member
Registered: 2019-11-23
Posts: 30

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

Hmmm. To be frank, I haven't quit this site, but I have been really discouraged from submitting here by the crazy levels of censorship, the weird editing of other people's comments to change what they said, and also---don't hate--- rob_s, you are way too aggressive and anti-artist, it really turned me off of this site. Seems like you want a happy little North American culture Christian Friendly site and hate on all of us that are different than that. Really don't feel the love that sites like Openclipart built/build. Just my two cents. No hate, I just wanted to be honest.

Last edited by j4p4n (2020-01-22 14:56:41)

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#14 2020-01-22 17:00:46

rob_s
Moderator
Registered: 2019-10-04
Posts: 182

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

J4P4N, good to see you took time out from your uploading schedule at OCAL to check back with us at freesvg, I hope OCAL is fulfilling your needs, and you are please with the fast progress they are making towards recovering their site.

As I have pointed out previously I am atheist so I push no religious agenda, and I stand by my moderation of comments posted by Liftarn which was necessary to ensure the site remained bipartisan / unbiased and not offensive to people who had joined in on the discussion. Lets be honest your personal beef with me appears to stem from the time I asked you to shorten your description on one of the first images you uploaded to the site, as most of what you had typed was irrelevant and was more of a rant than anything else, you apparently took offence to this, and we have been at logger heads ever since.

Only two individuals have a problem with the censorship, and so far every attempt made by myself or the moderators to convince you that it's a necessary evil mostly to protect minors has been met with disapproval. If you allow me to be frank for a moment, the site was developed to appeal to the masses and not just a select few, most people appear to understand and are accepting of the censorship.

Your way to aggressive comment is subjective and based on your own personal interaction with me, if you had been less resistive, incitive / disruptive then we would have gotten along fine, I think the problem is you expect the site to cater to your personal demands which isn't very community spirited.

We appreciate you and other artists / authors may like to add comments to your images alongside image descriptions, and this is a planned feature that will be introduced in the future. For the moment we encourage people to use accurate / concise descriptions when submitting images as what you enter influences search results for the benefit of all.

Despite our differences you are both welcome back anytime, as you and liftarn were valued contributors.

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#15 2020-01-22 22:04:47

rob_s
Moderator
Registered: 2019-10-04
Posts: 182

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

I should add, just like OCAL NSFW is now on by default for new users:https://twitter.com/openclipart/status/1216536164737306624
but this can be turned off within your dashboard if you are effected by it. This post discusses it further:https://forum.freesvg.org/viewtopic.php?pid=504#p504

Any constructive discussion relevant to this feature is welcome.

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#16 2020-01-23 13:49:54

j4p4n
Member
Registered: 2019-11-23
Posts: 30

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

rob_s, your message clearly illustrates my point. It was quite passive-aggressive and felt like you were attacking me for my opinions (I never said you were Christian by the way, I was pointing out some weird status quo that you were trying to maintain instead of being open minded) and that's an example of the weak point of this site. The main site feels that way too, very cold and impersonal. So I was just trying to give feedback, not trying to get attacked or anything.

Last edited by j4p4n (2020-01-23 13:50:12)

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#17 2020-01-23 14:47:22

rob_s
Moderator
Registered: 2019-10-04
Posts: 182

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

I think your going back on your word to a degree as your exact statement implies I have some religious motivation I am pushing "Seems like you want a happy little North American culture Christian Friendly site" why would I?, further more, this seems to be an ideology of your own making which is really just opposition or discrimination toward a different group of people that don't share the same values or belief's as yourself, either that or it's just another attempt by yourself to muddy the waters and discredit me as best you can.

As I have stated this site is not OCAL and maybe your expectations are set a little too high, OCAL had 15 years to perfect their site and this site is just getting started in its journey, it has no desire to mimic OCAL, after 6 months downtime of OCAL with 0 communication, the devs were kind enough to host the old collection they took time to compile from various sources and opened the site up to user contributions, free for anyone to use, their primary objective was to ensure the public domain content created over all those years remained accessible to the general public FOC, they continue to develop the site, and they provided a forum for the reason I outlined in my previous post, the only thing they haven't done is handout cookie's and coco.

Seems to me your a die hard OCAL fan, as you resumed uploading to their site almost immediately when they showed signs of returning, so lets not make your reasons for no longer contributing here about anything different, if the site feels cold and impersonal then put forward constructive UI idea's for improvement instead of matter of fact comments, but please abstain from trying to change things such as censorship, even if I were out of the picture, the sites dev's reserve the right to enforce this which ever way they see fit, if that means a couple of people are put off from using the site, then so be it, it's a small price to pay, for the greater good.

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#18 2020-01-23 15:40:26

j4p4n
Member
Registered: 2019-11-23
Posts: 30

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

rob_s, sigh, your reply is perfect example of what I mean. Saying that I am "going back on your word" etc etc etc. You can deflect the blame (and it's not just you, don't misunderstand) but your comments continue to be passive aggressive and unwelcoming. You don't make me or many others feel welcome, instead you shrug and say "I think they should censor minority cultures because I am an atheist and so it's ok" which makes no sense and whatever you are really saying you don't sound to be on the side of art and artists but instead having a "you guys suck and I know what is best" attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if you censored or edited this or tried to distort it with a passive aggressive reply instead of just owning up to your behavior and trying to grow from this and understand what I'm trying to express, regardless of my inability to say it in nice words.

Last edited by j4p4n (2020-01-23 15:40:44)

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#19 2020-01-23 16:58:21

rob_s
Moderator
Registered: 2019-10-04
Posts: 182

Re: [IDEA] attract more contributors

J4P4N, you seem to be under the impression the mild censorship is a direct assault on your creativity, or the availability of your work to the general public, neither of these things are true you are free to draw / design / upload / comment "when the comment feature is enabled" as you wish, however the site has a duty of care towards others so if the content contravene site rules then it will be marked as NSFW / NSFC. This is a rule that applies to everyone not just you. It does not however mean your work will be removed or completely inaccessible, it just means people will have to log in to view, and if they haven't done so already, they will need to change their NSFW settings removing the restriction.

You seem to think I am green to the creation of clipart, and not as educated as you in such matters, so couldn't possibly understand or relate to what you are saying, which is just self-righteous claptrap, admittedly I may not be as prolific or gifted creator as yourself but I know my way around inkscape & gimp and can accomplish most tasks I put my mind to with ease, so does this not make me an artist also, and what qualifies as an artist, must you have to have public recognition, show of my work in public galleries / only use adobe illustrator to be a true artist, the point is how can you draw the line between the distinction of you the artist and me the user, without you even knowing what my capabilities / qualifications / experience are.

I've mentioned this previously "You don't make me or many others feel welcome" I remind you again, you do not speak for all users and in my opinion this is another example of you trying to discredit me as best you can. Neither myself or the Devs have ever said or insinuated  "you guys suck and I know what is best" but at the end of the day the dev's pay the site hosting costs, and donate their own time and artwork to developing this project so have the final say on what is  / is not acceptable, you can either choose to make use of this great resource and accept their relaxed censorship or not, it's entirely up to yourself.

My role on this site is voluntarily to moderate:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate and to assist other users that run into difficulty, there is nothing to be gained for either of us by continuing on with this conversation as it's counter productive. Personally I think your making a mountain out of a mole hill to be honest, but I accept if this site does not live up to your expectations, then I respect your decision to return to OCAL who hopefully do a better job at accommodating your needs.

As mentioned your welcome back anytime!

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