FreeSVG community discussion forum

CyanideCupcake

Member

Registered: 2019-09-28

Posts: 12

Website

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

So this reported image is fascinating, because to many cultures a picture of a pooping person with the caption "Figure from traditional Catalan nativity scenes" would seem in bad taste.   It was reported as explicit content with the note "description states: image from catalan nativity scene, really?" 

But after a quick google the description is 100% correct.  A caganer is a Catalonian nativity tradition going back to the 18th century and it involves a pooping man.  I assume the "Nadal" part refers to Tió de Nadal, which is another poop related Christmas tradition in the region.  I have updated the description to give greater context to the image.

It's really quite interesting how we can interpret these images differently based upon our own cultural experiences.

rob_s

Moderator

Registered: 2019-10-04

Posts: 184

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

Hi, it was me that flagged the image as I considered it to be in bad taste, just as I would if it were an image that promoted whale hunting or dog eating, as some traditions can also be seen as being unpleasant to citizen of developed countries, or to those who don't share the same value as others. I'm not saying releiving one's self outside shouldn't happen, millions still do it, and if your out camping and nature calls, you have to do the necessary, but we equally don't have to hang a sign promoting it, unless it's of course it is to warn others not the step in it, but even then, here in the UK we are encouraged to bury it.

I had a feeling that it was genuine, due to it's slick finish, looks to have been done professionally, which is why I wrote that remark, as I simply couldn't beleive it myself, I know this type of thing takes place throughout the world, but thankfully most cultures have moved on, even india wants to be seen as distancing themselves from the practice these days: https://newrepublic.com/article/153549/ … defecation there is also an artical on wiki about it but one I linked is more relevant to the point I am trying to make, that I may have forgotten.

The point, oh yeh:Despite our own moral judgments or feelings of nostalgia we may hold towards an image, I personally think we should not lose sight of who may be viewing the site as it's accessible to all without any age restrictions, if the web devs agree the image should be censored it willl be available still, just to registered users, or they may decide it shouldn't be censored, either way I am fine with it, as it causes me no offense personally.

Liftarn made the same interesting observation, almost anything could be percieved as being offensive to others, so it's a bit of a judgement call we are taking, I am the first to admit I am not always right, which is why thankfully there is a two step process and of course this forum to keep me in check.

liftarn

Member

Registered: 2019-10-09

Posts: 79

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

OK,for now all images reported as explicit content are accessible only if registered.
Also blur with watermark will be added to preview images.

And I already see that it has been abused. Examples include
https://freesvg.org/corpjack (political reasons)
https://freesvg.org/Red-e-mail-icon (spam)
https://freesvg.org/gop-america-flag (political reasons)
https://freesvg.org/communism-wallpaper (political reasons)
https://freesvg.org/coexist (religious reasons)
https://freesvg.org/when-you-pirate-mp3 … -communism (political reasons)
https://freesvg.org/refugees-welcome-1573139765 (obviously it may be offensive to racists)
https://freesvg.org/act-of-slavery (obviously it may be offensive to racists)

As well as several more.

Rob_s wrote:
Thanks Liftarn, I figured it would be only a matter of time, Webdevs, I think the report function may need to be only accessible to registered users at some stage, to prevent this sort of abuse.

[FUTURE FEATURE] also a clearly defined standard of acceptable images a sort of moral code of practice need to be written up at some point, so as Liftarn pointed out, we do not find ourselves blocking everything, Once forum user numbers are up, I suggest putting together a focus group made up of registered users where you state the target audience, and we the community then vote on the types of images to be marked NSFW such as: racially motivated / nudity / bad taste / Xenophobia that kind of thing. Or if anyone has any other idea's then please comment.

vedran

Moderator

Registered: 2019-09-21

Posts: 77

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

We have noticed abuse of this report button, so in the future only registered users will be able to report image (there is also bug when reporting image but not logged in).
Since there is already automatically developed algorithms  (Google Vision) this will be used as help in determining if image is explicit.
Only images recognised as explicit by AI and user will be automatically marked and require login for access.
For now we suggest only pornography, nudity and racism as explicit.

This is our idea. Please suggest if you have something better.

rob_s

Moderator

Registered: 2019-10-04

Posts: 184

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

your suggestion works for me, anyone else in agreement?

Can I just ask though do silhouettes of a naked people those where they are posed provocatively also count as nudity, I've seen a lot of these being marked as such even tho there is nothing on show, if you get my meaning.

liftarn

Member

Registered: 2019-10-09

Posts: 79

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

Can I just ask though do silhouettes of a naked people those where they are posed provocatively also count as nudity, I've seen a lot of these being marked as such even tho there is nothing on show, if you get my meaning.

I'd say no. Such silhouettes was use in the into to old James Bond movies so...

Rob_s wrote:
I suppose you are right, some of the old opening sequences seem to have been allowed, to be honest I thought all bond movies were PG, wasn't until I checked I learned otherwise, thank got my parent paid no attention, and blockbusters never seem to have minded either:https://www.thejamesbonddossier.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/uk-us-spain-ratings.jpg

j4p4n

Member

Registered: 2019-11-23

Posts: 30

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

rob_s, I think you missed the point about culture differences? You were saying "as some traditions can also be seen as being unpleasant to citizen of developed countries" with the example of whale hunting. Japan and Norway both hunt whales and would you say they are not developed countries?? You don't realize you are putting your own claims of what is "civilized" from your own culture bias. I think it is difficult if we start censoring too much. Yes, I think clearly sex images are porn and aren't needed. But nudity when artistic seems odd to censor. There are plenty of nude statues and paintings in museums, can kids not go to museums? And why censor religious items just because someone might be offended? I don't know. I agree with making it school friendly around here. But disagree that school friendly means conservative American Christian school. The world is a big place.

liftarn

Member

Registered: 2019-10-09

Posts: 79

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

There are plenty of nude statues and paintings in museums, can kids not go to museums? And why censor religious items just because someone might be offended? I don't know. I agree with making it school friendly around here. But disagree that school friendly means conservative American Christian school. The world is a big place.

This!

If it's something kids will see in museums, on the beach, in the supermarket and on TV it shouldn't be censored. If we let the Texas Board of Education who brought us hits like "KKK and Jim Crow laws never existed" and "evolution is just a theory, but creationism is OK" decide what we should or shouldn't allow it's a very different matter.

liftarn

Member

Registered: 2019-10-09

Posts: 79

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

Rob_s wrote:

Could you perhaps use the reply function instead of editing my message? When you do I can't see that you have replied without checking the thread.

rob_s

Moderator

Registered: 2019-10-04

Posts: 184

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

I use the Rob_s wrote, as I don't want the devs to overlook your post, as I post often, I will do as you have asked but you may find yourself having to repost if your original post gets overlooked.

In response to the Censorship issue, I thought this had already been resolved as you have seen the Web developers response on this. From my own perspective, I have no children and don't believe in god, I believe in evolution and still think kids should not have to be subjected to questionable images, they have their entire life to learn about human anatomy and the darker side to human nature. I would say instead of looking at this issue as an adult, and instead try to look at it from a childs perspective, do they really need a visual depiction of Ménage à trois and what benefit does it serve them. Yes to an adult it is funny, and possibly also to a teenager but would a 3 or 5 year find any enjoyment form it, my guess is no, which is precisely why it should not be accessible from the front page, your entitled to disagree but the web developer have already given you their answer, and I doubt they are prepared to change their stance on the subject.

This is precisely why there needs to be a code of conduct placed on the site, to lay this issue to rest once and for all.

j4p4n

Member

Registered: 2019-11-23

Posts: 30

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

rob_s, you did not address what I said at all. I agree porn has no place on a clipart site, as I said in my original comment. So Ménage à trois clipart is not needed. But I was addressing you honestly offense statement that I am not part of a civilized society if my society hunts whales. Same with the poop christmas image and other things. How can you decide what is "civilized" in a big world. And are you saying (I couldn't log in to the forum for awhile) the developers said "ZERO" nudity, even artistic? If so, that's strange. So does that mean female nudity only? Can I not show men at the beach topless? I don't know, I think there needs to be more clarity in regards to that. But also in regards to your "we should only do what civilized people" do thing, which left me confused.

rob_s

Moderator

Registered: 2019-10-04

Posts: 184

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

rob_s, I think you missed the point about culture differences? You were saying "as some traditions can also be seen as being unpleasant to citizen of developed countries" with the example of whale hunting. Japan and Norway both hunt whales and would you say they are not developed countries?? You don't realize you are putting your own claims of what is "civilized" from your own culture bias. I think it is difficult if we start censoring too much. Yes, I think clearly sex images are porn and aren't needed. But nudity when artistic seems odd to censor. There are plenty of nude statues and paintings in museums, can kids not go to museums? And why censor religious items just because someone might be offended? I don't know. I agree with making it school friendly around here. But disagree that school friendly means conservative American Christian school. The world is a big place.

Both Japan and Norway are developed countries instead of knit picking and analyzing every word said, you should instead focus on the point I was trying to make, somethings are offensive to others, this might be a cultural difference or just someone sensitivity to a certain subject. Lets go back to whale hunting, I personally have a problem with developed countries like Norway and Japan carrying out whale hunting, as I find the practice unnecessary, that's not to say I feel the same way about an eskimo doing it who depends on the practice for survival, either way I would see an image posted to a site depicting this as grotesque and insensitive and if I had my way I would report it. Fortunately, as I understand it we are only talking about censoring nude images. You have said nude images with artistic value should not be censored but where do we draw the line? it couldbe considered xart is art, but some might say it's porn.

rob_s

Moderator

Registered: 2019-10-04

Posts: 184

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

With all due respect, I am not going to be drawn further into a conversation debating societal norms or traditions, relating to any race / religion / gender / sexuality creed / ethnicity, as to do so is meaningless, as it's not something I have control over, you are free to draw whatever you like, no one is preventing you from doing so, what the site is stating is that anything reported by another user as being offensive, will be reviewed by the developers, and may no longer be accessible from the home page, you would instead need to login to view that image.

j4p4n

Member

Registered: 2019-11-23

Posts: 30

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

rob_s, ok fair, we don't have to talk about race/religion/gender norms if you don't want to, but you seem to be open to discussing nudity, so is male topless nudity ok? are nude statues of female Romans ok? What about nudity at Churches in European murals? Ancient Egypt walls? I find it odd that you think that ALL nudity should be censored. The human body isn't offensive just because it is nude. Yes, porn shouldn't be on a clipart site, but I have a problem with the idea that somehow children are damaged by seeing the curves of a female breast in a non-sexual manner or some artistic bum on a male gladiator. Seems odd to consider anything nude as porn.

rob_s

Moderator

Registered: 2019-10-04

Posts: 184

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

But this isn't any of those things, It's a clipart site, where the website developers, not me, decide what is acceptable. It's just like facebook or twitter imposing censorship to protect minors, except this sites censorship is far less severe on this site. I don't know this for certain but I am pretty sure OCAL had censorship, in place also, I asked them this, but they never answered, the only reason it's such a hot topic is we are seeing these images now, even though we probably weren't aware these existed until now. I used OCAL extensively and dont recall ever seeing images of this nature, but then again I wasn't looking for them so could be mistaken.

Where I live UK societal norms dictate that men who are topless is acceptable, but women who are topless isn't. I don't know at what stage within the evolution of social behavour this became a norm, I only know that right now, in the present day in th UK this is how it is, I realise it  may be different for others, or more relaxed in some placed. Artwork found in museums or on churches are relics from the past, created in a time when social norms were very different. Of course if you take a child to church or gallery then they are going to see images of this nature, but their exposure to these images is very low and inconsequential, what you are suggesting is the opposite.

At the end of the day it is not the sites responsibility to teach anatomy, sex education, or define what is or isn't nude art, that is the responsibility of parents, guardians or teachers when they feel the time is right to educate children on those matters.

j4p4n

Member

Registered: 2019-11-23

Posts: 30

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

rob_s, well thought out, and well argued. I can see that our core values are different on a central point. From what you said about this not being a museum or not our job to teach sex education etc, I see that you still think that non pornographic nudity is somehow sexual, I'm arguing that it isn't and that it doesn't harm children so it doesn't matter if this isn't those other places or the parents haven't taught the children about sex yet. Because I see non pornographic nudity as harmless. I guess we can't agree on that though.

Incidentally, if you are interested Openclipart did have a policy on nudity and it did kind of change a bit over the years. Some of the ones that have been reported here were reported there too, but many of the innocent ones were not. The official policy was graphic nudity had to be marked NSFW (they had a toggle switch) but incidental cartoon non-sexual nudity was typically not marked as such. (Also of note, they also worried about wanting school clicks so there was debate on there about weather we should even have sexual NSFW clipart at all.)

rob_s

Moderator

Registered: 2019-10-04

Posts: 184

Re: [Feature] NSFW tag

I figured OCAL must have had some form of censorship under the hood, as I couldn't recall seeing anything of that nature. Also I do know their search results were limited to 33 pages for some reason, so we were never really served the entire collection when searching something anyway, purhaps this is how their censorship worked by demoting those kind of images so they didn't appear in the results.

Back to the discussion at hand, I have no influence over acceptible forms of nudity on the site, I am giving my personal oppinion which could be contridicated by the web devs if they are not in agreement, they after all have the final say so. Further more, I've also struggled with the question what is acceptable myself, as there are provocative silhouettes on the site, which liftarn believed should be acceptable and gave a valid point, so when screening those images, I now tend to ignore them.

It's a fine line we must walk, there are many situations when an image contains nudity but is not of a sexual nature, but may still need censored, I could give examples but it's not necessary as we all have an imagination.

I value your contribution to this discussion, and trust me I am trying to see both sides of the coin, but we do need to get something pinned down in writting officially if only to avoid it being a subject that is reignited again in the future, as it's a controversial topic.

On the plus side, the images however controversial they may be are still accessible, just to registered users.